A note on Luis Dizon of Nicene International

Quick few notes.

I have no idea what set this young Christian apologist off. – Luis Dizon of Nicene International. Sadly, Muslims being spoken down to by Christian apologists is nothing new. Sam Shamoun recently called myself, Yusuf Ismail and Ijaz Ahmad “sewage”. No surprise then that folk like David Wood – recently accused of “false witness” by James White’s Alpha and Omega Ministries’ president – mock and insult Islam and Muslims on YouTube while their Christian friends and colleagues sit idly and silently – in many cases encourage such disgraceful mockery and insults by sharing and/or praising his vile videos. Totally designed to sow division between Muslims and Christians

Perhaps Luis was trying to curry favour with that crowd of Christian apologist who only exist to make a bit of cash out of mocking and insulting Islam under the guise of “evangelism”.

Or maybe he’s taking his cues from the milder ones like James White, again somebody who is known for mean comments towards his opponents – as pointed out by Pastor Jacob Prasch.

I don’t know. I don’t care. Just sort it out, please. Luis has done this to me before, he posted on FB about a year ago telling everybody he had blocked me. Why did he block me, erm because I called something 95% of Brits would consider “bigotry” or at the very least feel uncomfortable hearing. The comments were from his friend (and colleague at Nicene Ministries), what’s his name, Steven Martins? Canadian guy who debated Ijaz Ahmad in Trinidad. He later came back and unblocked me although as far as I know, he has never apologised despite practically instigating a hate-fest against me on his FB post proclaiming he blocked me (don’t think he even linked to the reason why he blocked me).

I think this video serves as a response to that testosterone fueled rant which seems to be designed to muddy the waters prior to a debate – debate tactics?. Why he did it after everything was looking great – he and Ijaz looked good and jolly together – I don’t know.

We need more of that and less of  Wood and Shamoun poison.

Oh, and responding with equal measures of testosterone like it’s some sort of Batman vs Superman thingy doesn’t work here. I’m more light-hearted. I hope Luis and others in that camp can see the funny side of it all and take on board the serious undertones. Nobody appreciates being spoken to like that (to be fair, Luis has said he sounded as he did because he was tired)

Oh and Luis, this is not a hit piece. Simply a public response. Take this piece of advice if you want; stop trying to please the nasty crowd of evangelicals on the net (if that’s what you’re doing) who think Muslims as sewage. Apparently one of your followers accused me of being a refugee rapist or something too , Thomas something.

Peace. NOTE: There’s a plausible explanation as to why Ijaz thought what he did (i.e. the comments Luis criticised, let’s use a soft word, Ijaz for.

 

The Facts About Islam: Steven Martins

Luke 23:39-43, Gregory Boyd and James White

Comment from Richard

Greetings Yahya:

”Do you know where he mentioned Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses can go to Heaven?”

In the video Boyd implies that a JW or Mormon can go to heaven,he doesn’t say it directly,by using the example of the thief on the cross who got saved.

A.The passage is:

Luke 23:39-43

”One of the criminals who were hanged there kept deriding him and saying, “Are you not the Messiah?Save yourself and us!”

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.”

Then he said, “Lord, remember me when you come into YOUR kingdom.”

He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

1.The thief says Jesus is LORD,presumably he accepts Jesus as the MESSIAH

2.Then he says YOUR kingdom,meaning he believes the Messiah has authority in paradise

3.In paradise people are divine beings,so at the MOST,at most,the thief accepted that Jesus was divine(while still on earth,but NOT Yahweh Incarnate)(as the JWs and Mormons believe)

or was only human,but on dying would become a spiritual being,and have divine authority in heaven.

B.The counter-argument is that BEFORE this Jesus in Luke,in the original Greek,orders God to forgive those who are killing him:

Luke 23:34:

”Jesus said, “Father, forgive them(an order), for they do not know what they are doing.” ”

Who can order God to do something,except he himself? But the problem with this argument is that there is HIGH probability(I am sure Greg Boyd knows this,which is WHY he uses the thief on the cross example) that,according to scholars,it is an interpolation,it was never in the original.

C.One who believes it is an interpolation is James White,the Calvinist:

In his >b>2013 article ”From the Lips of Jesus or a Scribal Hand?“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing””

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2013/03/16/from-the-lips-of-jesus-or-a-scribal-hand-father-forgive-them-for-they-do-not-know-what-they-are-doing-2/

In his conclusion James White says:

”My Conclusion

In my estimation, given the judgment of the weight of both the external and internal support [internal support was not covered in this blog post], it is reasonable to place about a 75-90% degree of probability that the longer reading is a scribal insertion early into the transmission history.

The attestation among text-types and the diverse early geographical witnesses and their genealogical weight strengthens the probability of the shorter reading being primary.

Whereas the longer reading is attested primarily early on in only the Western text………………….Concerning the argument that this reading was excised early because of anti-Judaic bias, in this particular variant, it is not a sufficiently cogent reason as explained.

Up until the second century, the shorter reading was read widely. It was until sometime during the second century, probably the middle to the late part, that the longer reading was added and from then eventually found its way into all the text-types and the majority textual history thereafter.”

Here is the gist of what White wrote before the conclusion

”A few years ago I wrote a paper entitled, “Luke 23:34a: From the Lips of Jesus or a Scribal Hand?”

I argued that this saying of Jesus on the cross has significant textual doubt to its originality. It was sometime during the second century, probably the middle to the late part, that this saying was added, probably to a gospel harmony, and

from then on it eventually found its way into all the text-types and the majority textual history thereafter.”

The article also says:

”For Jacobus H. Petzer, the documentary evidence for an insertion into the textual tradition is noted,


Analyzing this evidence shows that the short reading [i.e., omission] has in fact a wide basis of diverse evidence in its favour:

The text is absent from almost all the earliest Alexandrian witnesses, notable P75, B and the Sahidic version,

as well as some of the later Alexandrian or Egyptian witnesses, such as the Bohairic version and the minuscule 579.

It is absent from some Western witnesses, notably the early Latin witnesses a and d, as well as Codex Bezae.

It is furthermore omitted in the early Syriac tradition through its absence in the Synaitic Syriac version and the Syriac commentary of Cyril.

Finally, it is even omitted in some of the early sources of the Byzantine text, such as W. [2]”

And also:

”Petzer notes that the material evidence for the long reading is early, but qualifies it,

“All these witnesses, however, belong to the same text-type. The evidence is thus genealogically limited. The pattern is more or less the same in the third century, with the reading occurring in Origen, Hipolytus of Rome, the Latin manuscripts c and e, which represent the earlier African form of the Vetus Latina, as well as the Curetonian Syriac version. All this evidence belongs to the Western texts with Origen the only exception.[6]

In contrast, the diversity of the documentary evidence gives substantial weight to the shorter reading and thereby would strongly suggest a secondary origin of the longer reading. But the external documentary evidence cannot be considered definitive without an honest evaluation of internal considerations, which can be complex, yet extremely significant to the conundrum of this variant. But internal consideration is for another day, however, I did argue in my paper that there was likely a scribal numerical motivation for this interpolation.

Basics on Sharia – What is Sharia?

Islamophobia takes professional failures and gives them an avenue to flourish as supposed experts in Islam albeit having no credentials at all. That industry is about who can yell the loudest and insult in a way which appeals to the right wing – as well as fear monger the most.

 

Suhaib Webb is a specialist in Sharia and he finds it incredible that most books and media presentations in the West about the Sharia are being produced by people who are untrained, to say the least, in Islamic studies.

Meaning of Sharia

Sharia comes from the word Sh-Ra-3

It has a number of linguistic meanings:

Way, Path, Legislation, Oasis in a desert

Everything that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Quran and Sunnah) is called Sharia. Sharia implies those things which are not interpreted such as praying, pilgrimage, being honest, eating certain kinds of meat etc.. This is definitive and non-negotiable.

People confuse two different topics; Sharia and Fiqh.

Sharia is everything that was revealed to the Prophet (p). The text of Sharia is limited. Part of the Sharia is universal and another part is particular. The universal part generally comes from the Quran and the particular part comes from the Sunnah.

The actions of people are not limited. Imam Shafi spoke about a methodology of dealing with these actions of people – Fiqh. Fiqh means to understand. Fiqh is an attempt (when needed) to understand Islam in situations such as when Sharia texts are not clear to us or when there is no text about a topic (such as T-cells, abortion, when somebody is in a vegetative condition in hospital, plastic surgery etc). About 95% of legal rulings in Islam come from Fiqh (thus meaning it’s not necessarily binding). Fatwa: is an opinion.

Harith ibn Amr reported: Some men among the companions of Mu’adh said the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, sent him to Yemen and the Prophet said:

كَيْفَ تَقْضِي

How will you judge?

Mu’adh said, “I will judge according to what is in the Book of Allah.” The Prophet said:

فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ

What if it is not in the Book of Allah?

Mu’adh said, “Then with the tradition (sunnah) of the Messenger of Allah.” The Prophet said:

فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِي سُنَّةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ

What if it is not in the tradition of the Messenger of Allah?

Mu’adh said, “Then I will strive to form an opinion (ijtihad).” The Prophet said:

الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ الَّذِي وَفَّقَ رَسُولَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ

All praise is due to Allah who has made suitable the messenger of the Messenger of Allah.

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1327, Grade: Sahih

This narration demonstrates the proper procedure for applying Islamic guidance that would eventually develop into the discipline of the principles of Islamic jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh). Taken from: http://abuaminaelias.com/lessons-from-the-journey-of-muadh-ibn-jabal-to-yemen/

The goals/objectives of Sharia

Al Ghazali in the 4th century of Islam wrote about the goals of Sharia (law). The goal of Sharia is not to destroy people but to bring benefit and prevent harm – legal theorists across different eras and geographical plains all concluded the same thing about Sharia (i.e. bring benefit and prevent harm).

Al-Ghazali wrote:

لكننا نعنى بالمصلحة المحافظة على مقصود الشرع ومقصود الشرع من الخلق خمسة وهو أن يحفظ عليهم دينهم وأنفسهم وعقلهم ونسلهم ومالهم فكل ما يتضمن حفظ هذه الأصول الخمسة فهو مصلحة وكل ما يفوت هذه الأصول الخمسة فهو مفسدة

Welfare which we mean here is the protection of the objectives of the law (sharia). Namely, the objectives of the law are five in creation: the protection of religion, life, intellect, family relations, and property. Everything that advances the protection of these five fundamentals is considered benefit, and everything which fails to protect these five fundamentals is considered corruption. Source: Al-Mustasfa min Ilm al-Usul 287

Solas CPC Challenged By a Muslim To Think Deeper

The Pro-gay marriage movement is one of the biggest movements within what Christian theologians would call the “body of Christ” in the West. Ecumenism is up there too. In reality both ecumenism and the pro-gay marriage movement stem from liberal Christianity.

The sheer size of the Christian pro-gay marriage movement would mean Christians like Alisdair (Ally) Smith and David Robertson of Solas CPC believe the majority of the members of the “body of Christ” are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit nowadays as opposed to 30 years ago:

In others words, while clear majorities disapproved in 1983 (highest at 74.8 per cent for Catholics and 79.7 per cent for other Christians), in 2010 opposition had fallen to lower than 50 per cent in each group – lowest at 37.4 per cent for Anglicans and 20.4 per cent for those with no religion. Note that in all our tables given below, survey weights have been applied. [Dr Ben Celements, Leicester University]

One would expect this trend to continue, perhaps to the extent of virtually all Christians in the UK being pro-gay marriage or at the very least accepting of it in the coming years. Again, putting forth further questions on the beliefs the Christian community have concerning the Holy Spirt. As GotQuestions describes these beliefs:

Jesus gave the Spirit as a “compensation” for His absence, to perform the functions toward us which He would have done if He had remained personally with us….The Spirit’s presence within us enables us to understand and interpret God’s Word. Jesus told His disciples that “when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13).

What are David Robertson’s Solas CPC and the other minority of Christian activists going to say here? Will they say, the majority of Christians in the UK aren’t guided by the Holy Spirt and thus don’t interpret the Scripture in a way that is acceptable?

And what of the flip side, the Christian pro-gay marriage side? The majority side may well just point at their numbers and use that to support the claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them to do what Christ would do today!

In fact, the Christian pro-gay marriage side may even say there have been historical precedents in the past concerning early Christians and their deliberations towards the Trinity belief and the NT canon.

Let’s focus on the NT canon for a few moments. It was basically decided by a majority rule, early on there was disagreement as to which books to consider “inspired”. Christian theology would teach the decisions on the inclusion/exclusion of any book was guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet in reality, it appears, it was just majority rule which won out in the end.

it is not quite accurate to say that there has never been any doubt in the Church of any of our New Testament books. A few of the shorter Epistles (e.g. 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude) and the Revelation were much longer in being accepted in some parts than in others; while elsewhere books which we do not now include in the New Testament were received as canonical. Thus the Codex Sinaiticus included the ‘Epistle of Barnabas’ and the Shepherd of Hermas, a Roman work of about AD 110 or earlier, while the Codex Alexandrinus included the writings known as the First and Second Epistles of Clement; and the inclusion of these works alongside the biblical writings probably indicates that they were accorded some degree of canonical status. [FF Bruce]
The only books about which there was any substantial doubt after the middle of the second century were some of those which come at the end of our New Testament. Origen (185-254) mentions the four Gospels, the Acts, the thirteen Paulines, 1 Peter, 1 John and Revelation as acknowledged by all; he says that Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James and Jude, with the ‘Epistle of Barnabas,’ the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, and the ‘Gospel according to the Hebrews,’ were disputed by some. Eusebius (c. 265-340) mentions as generally acknowledged all the books of our New Testament except James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, which were disputed by some, but recognised by the majority. Athanasius in 367 lays down the twenty-seven books of our New Testament as alone canonical; shortly afterwards Jerome and Augustine followed his example in the West. The process farther east took a little longer; it was not until c. 508 that 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation were included in a version of the Syriac Bible in addition to the other twenty two books. [FF Bruce]
Now, think about the parallels here between the gradual decision via majority-rule on what to call canon and the pro-gay marriage movement.
David Robertson and his colleagues at Solas CPC may state the glaring difference; homosexual unions have been outlawed Biblically (ref Leviticus 18:22, 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 1:26-28)
There are two issues here for Solas CPC and other anti-gay marriage Christian activists:
1. The Bible is not a closed text. There has been relatively recent precedent of whole chunks of the NT being relegated to possible forgery status as per the findings of Dr Von Tischendorf in the 19th century. They are finding new manuscripts regularly. There is nothing to stop another find relegating other parts of the NT to possible forgery (scribal addition) status. What if that happens in 50 years time regarding 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 1:26-28? All it would take would be a discovery of an early MSS of said texts omitting such verses or rendering different wording in those verses to the extent of changing the apparent meaning of the text.
It’s clear Christians cannot have confidence in their NT texts.
2. The problem of interpretation. The pro-gay camp have their own interpretations of the relevant Bible texts. Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier, who has served the Presbyterian Church (USA) since 1984 as a minister, theology professor, and writer states there’s an overwhelmingly positive case for gay marriage in the Bible:

 

Fortunately, the church across the centuries has developed guidelines for interpreting Scripture that help keep our use of particular passages in touch with the true portrait of God’s love in Christ. When we apply these guidelines, the Bible’s teaching about gay people and their relationships appears in a whole new light. In my book I show how the application of these time-tested principles of biblical interpretation produces an overwhelmingly positive biblical case in favor of gay marriage. I came to realize how my former reliance on fragmentary, out-of-context quotes from Scripture had led me to lose touch with the “big picture” of God’s love that lies at the heart of the Bible’s witness.

 

If you combine this with the fact the pro-gay marriage camp is the bigger camp now, in addition it is still growing, and couple it with the belief that Christians believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit in Scripture then there is a huge hurdle here for Solas CPC. Is this not a big problem as this camp will make a more forceful appeal to this belief concerning the Holy Spirit because they have the numbers in the West.

The problem here is the Christian belief about the Holy Spirit and the way history played it self out previously with regards to the Trinity belief and the NT canon being formulated based on majority rule.
Consistency: Western incompatibility – Alisdair Smith’s colleagues’ inconsistent argumentation.

Alisdair Smith’s colleagues in the mission fields (certainly Jonathan McLatchie’s colleagues) argue on the lines of Islam not being compatible with Western values when constructing polemics against Islam yet if we are consistent Alisdair Smith, SOLAS and the rest of the anti-gay marriage Christian camp are promoting a Christianity which is incompatible with Western values.

Again, questions concerning the Christian belief of the Holy Spirit arise as surely the Holy Spirit wouldn’t guide towards inconsistency..

Christian hypocrisy

This is a subtle one for the thinking Christian

Christianity is not monolithic. The Christian pro-gay marriage movement has wide spread and rapidly growing support (as seen above) yet colleagues of SOLAS’ Alisdair in the Christian polemics business such as Nabeel Qureshi, David Wood and Jay Smith would say ISIS is true Islam despite being miniscule and having no scholarly Islamic body supporting ISIS (in fact all Muslim scholarship has denounced ISIS) yet at the same time this Christian camp claims the pro same sex marriage movement is not true Christianity despite it having much more support from recognised Christian bodies, authorities and a vast and ever-growing supporter base amongst Christian laity.

Thus hypocrisy is outlined in more detail in this response to a Christian apologist, Jonathan McLatchie. Jonathan Mclatchie: Gay Marriage is “Madness” but Terrorism is..

Let’s discuss another example of what appears to be hypocrisy from the conservative Christian camp.

There are heterosexual dating prohibitions (Matt 5:28, 1 Cor 6) yet the campaigns against this are nowhere to be seen. Can SOLAS or any other Christian anti-gay marriage campaign group show me a track record of vociferous campaigning against this throughout the years?

In fact, one would expect there to be overwhelmingly more anti-heterosexual dating/sex-before-marriage activity than homosexual marriage as homosexual marriage is a relatively new phenomena.

Selective focus like this not only invites accusations of hypocrisy but it again leads to questions about the Christian belief in the Holy Spirit. If this camp seriously believes they are being guided by the Holy Spirit then why a selective focus? Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit not guided them to campaign more strongly against the more widespread sin – heterosexual dating and unmarried heterosexual sex?

Conclusion

British Muslims should not solely rely on Christians in this endeavour of campaigning against gay-marriage. Muslims must go out and take a lead role in this effort. Sure, working alongside straggling Christians like SOLAS is encouraged but do not sit back and think this Christian minority are knights in shining armour. They’re not. They could capitulate tomorrow just like Christians did by agreeing to majority rule on the Trinity belief and NT canon. Not to mention them pretty much giving up their efforts against heterosexual pre-marital sex (once again, I’d imagine this was due to the pressure of numbers against them).

As for the Christian soldiers who are currently admirably standing against the tide of the zeitgeist why not do it under the umbrella of Islam? Friends, look into Islam with an open heart.
Muslim Helps James White out: Why Bart Erhman Finds James White Offensive

The Lying Hand of the New Testament Scribe