Lazy Debate Review Jonathan McLatchie and Inamullah Mumtaz

Just read the review and walk on with a smile

Personally I doubt Inamullah Mumtaz is a ‘sheikh’ and I doubt Jonathan McLatchie has finished his PhD either. I doubt these titles were added to these chaps at their behest. ABN/Trinity channel seems to have an inferiority complex. CALM DOWN…people will still watch even if you introduce your guests as who they ACTUALLY are. Again, I can only think they are being influenced by their low-opinion of their audience (to be honest, I think their audience does carry a number of unsophisticated types as attested by some of the callers I’ve had the displeasure of listening to over the years – oh and while we are at it some of the guests too, yes you are one of them Usama Dakdok) . They also pulled this stunt with Ijaz Ahmad, they made him an ‘imam’. They’ve done it to Jonathan before too.

Oh and as if a fella having a PhD in a science subject and somebody who is a qualified scholar in Islam is going to lend more credibility to a  debate largely based on the New Testament text. THINK!!!
Stop this small man complex. It’s not clever. It’s insulting to the audience. It’s dishonest too.

Bassim and Samar Goriel, sort it out!

Debate Review

Jonathan McLatchie’s two-fold argument:

-Sayings in the NT which attest to Jesus being deity

-Disciples in the NT believed Jesus claimed to be divine

One of the problems in debates of this nature is folks taking the text in the NT as authoritative. How many people do not question the validity and authority of the text they are using in the debate and thus end up offering a one-dimensional debate?

Somebody should have just thrown their hands up in the air and said we are using texts adulterated and/or produced by a bunch of liars, ignoramuses and unauthorized folk. Why even bother trying to prove anything from this set of texts, these texts should not play a role in anybody’s theology never mind people entrusting their salvation on these texts…

…and then stormed off!

Nobody did that [surprised??] so let’s look at some of the points proffered

A contrived argument  from Matthew 11 and Malachi 3

Jonathan put these two together to claim John the Baptist was sent to pave the way for God. Nothing to see here folks, if  John the Baptist really thought Jesus was God, then he would have told his followers to leave him and follow Jesus p (as put by Zakir……… Hussain)

Jonathan to his credit appears to recognise the material in these books is of varying reliability so he offers an argument propping up the reliability of Matthew 11. Has Jonathan thought, both Matthew and Luke were copying off another liar (seems as though a ton of them were operating around the NT) or somebody who just passed on unverified material?

The peril of not knowing who you’re getting your material from! Jonathan would not cite a research paper whose author could not be verified in an academic setting so why the double standard here? Having said that, even if Matthew 11 was reliable, as shown earlier it does not teach Jesus was divine – John the Baptist did not think Jesus was divine..

I’m already getting tired and grouchy. I have the rest of Jonathan’s OS to go through and Inamullah Mumtaz’s material. Who’d want to be me right now 😦

OK, I skipped some, Jonathan is now talking about the Son of Man title. Did he learn anything from Shabir Ally? Here’s a video on the Son of Man, there’s a clip in there of Shabir going through various interpretations of that title – I believe in front of Jonathan (COME ON Jonathan it’s been explained!!!). Watch it…trust me, it’s an easier watch than this debate 🙂

Fair play to Jonathan, he again demonstrates he is aware of the problems concerning the reliability of texts from the ‘Gospels’ (yes, it’s plural, they have FOUR, 4, Arba3, Vier,) thus he argues for the authenticity of this alleged self-attribution by Jesus p.

Yiiikes! Jonathan’s mentioning Psalm 110. The moment you realise you don’t have a video to link to

😦   I haven’t looked into this so will leave it. I may do a post/video on it in the future…send any useful material to my email, thx.

Let’s just skip to stuff related to Jonathan’s second point…

He hasn’t left much time for his second argument, he must have thought his first one warranted the bulk of the time or perhaps he thinks this second one is the weaker of the two…???

Uh, Jesus’ disciples confirmed his deity??? Or did he say affirmed? Either way, same difference!

That’s not true.I have video to go with that assertion!  Here’s a Blue Peter number, did the disciples think Jesus was God. In this video you can quickly learn Mary (Jesus’ mother pbut), the disciples and John the Baptist did not think he was God. Tip, if you watched the first link…it’s the same one 😉

Hold on he’s talking about the Quran. ears prick up. Time to get more serious. (by the way Jonathan, you do realise words like ‘antithesis’ and ‘contention’ are just going to flyyyyy over a lot of these folks’ heads. COME ONE you’ve heard some of the callers on that show, a few Christian Prince types knocking about who are from Eastern Christian communities with a tribal hatred of Muslims – imagine! Save your big words for another time.)

Jonathan mate, your accent is not foreign to me but fella slooooooow it down. You’re not in a race with Usain Bolt. That stuff about Paul etc was just a blur. I’m not going to bother going back. As for Paul, I think this will be of interest as according to this he believes he only has one God, the Father:

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.  [1 Cor 8:6]
I’m really rushing through my homework now. Somebody slap me on the wrist. I’ve reached the half way line. Bring on Inamullah Mumtaz from the QDCI!!!

I skipped and heard Inamullah say they can never prove Jesus is God. Great. Bravo.10/10!

Ooh, Inamullah wasn’t impressed by Jonathan Mclatchie’s OS, it’s all interpretation and philosophy according to him. Zoooming forward.

Inamullah: If Jesus was God, he would say so. Inamullah repeats this throughout his bits I’ve looked at as of now – he really wants to drive this message home to the Eastern Christians who have a tribal hatred of Muslims. May I add, I’m not entirely sure they will understand Inamullah either…the accent may be a hurdle for that crowd. Good thing I’m writing my lazy review!!!

He also mentions the Shema. OK, fair point but it’s all kind of overlooking this Trinitarian’s stance. Trinitarians will say they agree with the Shema and the trinity idea was revealed in the ‘inter-testamental period’.

Chromosomes? Chimps and Humans? 46 and 48?

OK, I’m going to skip this but his argument is you’re either man or God. You cannot be both. But Inamullah, these folks believe in the incarnation and hypostatic union ideas. Youre better off if you discuss these, fella. Touch on them at least. Next time, show these ideas to be ideas from church tradition rather than ideas based on Sola Scriptura and/or authoritative teachings.

I don’t think saying their beliefs are pantheism is accurate. It’s a bit of a difficult one to put it in a box, maybe pagan-like elements? I mean, Jonathan believes a man who wrestled with Jacob in the Old Testament is God and Trinitarians believe a dove in the NT was God as well as a man in the NT being God. Getting tired now, oh yeah some of them also believe an angel in the OT was God too.

It’s weird but really, how can they say with confidence that they don’t believe a man down the road  is not God or a bird flying over head is not God based on their theology? They’ve set the precedent and others still, yes you Jonathan, push the envelope further in insisting an angel and/or man in the OT was God incarnate too.

Just out of interest, how would a Trinitarian such as Jonathan McLatchie go about proving a man in 2016 is not God incarnate?

For the Muslims, we know God is not a man and God is like no other.We have no problem in rejecting that idea outright as absurd. Same with the Jews. Whilst the Trinitarians have already gone beyond the limit and announced a bird, a man and an angel were God at some stage.

So how can they confidently declare a man walking down the street is not God? A bird in the sky is not God?

They made their bed with the incarnaton idea/s and now they are laying in it whilst Muslims and Jews are trying to wake them up.

Their basic theology is a mess. It’s a mess because it’s false.

OK, I’m not bothering with the rest. I’m out. Hurray!

Right kids, this is how to do this debate.

Whack on a recording of Shabir Ally or Zakir Hussain or IJAZ AHMAD 🙂 and then walk off

OR if you want to do it yourself start off with some verses from their text showing Jesus was not God.

Find some text from the OT showing God is not a man.

And then build from there, perhaps start talking about the lack of reliability of these texts and talk about the ideas of the trinity and incarnation being ideas read into the text rather than being a product of  pure exegesis thus showing these are ideas from church tradition.

OR if you really want to do something radical…try that huge chunk highlighted in yellow at the beginning of this review, go on you know you want to…

Night, night. Looking forward to the big match tomoz…LIVERPOOL against Man United.
Nota Bene one more thing, to Jonathan and Trinitarians out there. Look into matters deeper. Please. I know I’m playing around in this review but there’s a serious undertone to this. Let me get deadly serious here, why believe a man is God? I know why you folks do it, it’s because you’re emotionally attached to the vicarious atonement idea. Look, God does not need to send anybody to die for your sins or anybody else’s sins. Sure, we all have done horrible things that we would not even dare admit to our  colleagues, friends, wives and children…but God does not think like a human being. Whereas a human may hold some grudge against us and drag up something he/she said they had forgiven us for years after the event….God is not like that. He can forgive us no matter what we did and we remain forgiven…sincere repentance is required.

To believe God needs to have a ‘son’ to die for our sins is beyond a primitive understanding of God. It’s a transgression. In fact, a rabbi I listen to likens it to the pagan practices of sacrificing virgins (who represented purity, innocence). Move beyond these ideas.

We must all strive to love God with all our might and heart. This cannot be achieved if one is dividing their love by wrongly loving a man as God.

Jesus never taught this idea. Rummaging around in the NT texts and playing games of chess with your theology and salvation is not the way any of us should behave. A quote comes into mind from a James Dunn book I’m going through, he’s quoting Philo who comments on the first commandment:

Let us, then, engrave deep in our hearts this as the first and most sacred commandments, to acknowledge and honour  one God who is above all, and let the idea that gods are many never even reach the ears of the man whose rule of life is to seek for the truth in purity and guilelessness.

Please think about these this. PLEASE.

Jonathan McLatchie section

Unitarian Christians and Muslims having dreams which show Jesus (p) not to be God

[QURAN MIRACLES] The Miracles of the Number 19 in Quran | Dr. Shabir Ally

Nabeel Qureshi on Genesis 1:26

Rabbi Michael Skobac and rabbi Tovia Singer tell us most Trinitarian scholars do not think this passage refers to a trinity. He also states the plural of  ‘Us’ is either God addressing the angels or it’s the use of the plural of majesty is not a reference to the trinity idea too.

Genesis 1

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.…

Ravi Zacharias International Ministries’ Nabeel Qureshi Refuted by Tovia Singer and Michael Skobac

If the video does not play please see here

Some Christian missionaries will say anything just for you to believe in the trinity idea. Don’t switch your minds off. Don’t be fooled by Christian missionary spin. In this video we see Nabeel Qureshi is in opposition with Christian and Jewish scholars. For Christians having dreams and converting to Islam please see:

Clips from:

Is the Trinity Biblical – Rabbi Tovia Singer

Trinity What the Bible Teaches – Rabbi Skobac

Why Jews are so turned off by the Trinity – Rabbi Yisroel

Did Jonathan McLatchie Copy Nabeel Qureshi?

Why is the Trinity doctrine so difficult to understand? – Dr. Shabir Ally answers Nabeel Qureshi

Nabeel Qureshi’s Friend on Doctrine of Taqiyyah

Indonesian Muslims Converting to Christianity?

[QURAN MIRACLES] The Miracles of the Number 19 in Quran | Dr. Shabir Ally

ISIS Members Having Dreams of Jesus?

People having dreams and visions showing Jesus is not divine

Russell Brand Exposes Muslim Terrorism Percentage

Christian Dilemma on John 14:12-14

Christians are forced to believe the author of the Gospel of John lied about Jesus p.

This passage has Christians believing Jesus told people that true Christians will be able to perform greater miracles than him and that they will be able to pray  for anything  they wanted and be given it.

Christians, do you believe you can pray for anything and get it? Do you believe you can perform greater miracles than Jesus p?

It’s obvious you don’t believe this to be true, now you must say the author of the Gospel of John falsely attributed the teachings in John 14:12-14 to Jesus or are you going to say Jesus was wrong?

I’ll choose Jesus over the author of the Gospel of John any day.

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. [John 14 NIV]

Numerical miracle in Quran

British Muslims Protested to Defend Jesus p

Sharia Law against terrorism

Christians having dreams and converting to Islam

Conversions to Islam

Learn about Islam

Email: yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk

 

Speaker’s Corner: Jay Smith Has Xenophobic and White Supremacist ‘Friends’

I’m always keen to put some heat on those who are involved in the Islamophobia industry here in the UK as I know the landscape well. I know the majority of Brits find Islamophobia and anti-Muslim attitudes to be deplorable thus I have no qualms in labeling somebody based in the UK as an Islamophobe (if warranted) as it sends a powerful message to the rest of the country about the said individual.

Call a racist a ‘racist. Call an Islamophobe an ‘Islamophobe’. The majority of Brits would not touch either with a barge pole. Send the message loud and clear. It works.

Jay Smith has been dressing up and excusing his ‘activities’ as witnessing the Gospel to ‘radical Muslims’. Anybody would think he’s living in ISIS heartland the way this fella carps on. It’s the ‘persecution’ cult of Christian fundamentalists kicking in – these ae the folk who want to pretend they are treading the paths of early Christians and risking their lives in peaching a Trinity and a man-god idea (concepts which are foreign to the religion of Jesus p).

Jay Smith has been doing some grooming of late, he’s been grooming some apologists to take over his ‘mission’ as he’s not getting any younger. Ageing can result in one dropping their guard, Jay Smith seems to have dropped his guard here in proclaiming folk with question marks of xenophobia, white-supremacy, racism and anti-Muslim bogotry looming over their heads.

This is a new link between Christian evangelical Islamophobia and White supremacy as well as xenophobia.

My advice to Hatun Tash, Sarah and the other Non-White chap in Jay Smith’s group called Pfander Centre for Apologetics is to run a mile. Leave this extremist. Don’t allow him to radicalise you. THINK for yourselves. The right wing movements Jay is linked to may well be focussing on Muslims for now but don’t think they will not come for you. It’s clear at least two of Jay Smith’s buddies have a strong preference for the White race in European cities.

Have you ever stopped to wonder, why is it that we have seen such a sharp increase in the number of far right wing groups attacking Muslims? These groups used to attack Jews and all Non-Whites. Do you really believe these groups have reformed and all of a sudden they love Non-White people (as long as they aren’t Muslims)? I don’t think so. They see Muslims as the easier target for now hence why they are targeting Muslims for now…

If you’re a Brit be wary and strive to fend off the Christian fundamentalist Islamophobic movement which is creeping into British churches under the guise of movements such as ‘apologetics to Muslims’, ‘tackling extremist Islam in Europe’ etc.

Christian apologetics scandal: White supremacy, xenophobia and racism

If the video does not play please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psa8-yNJ9dY

Folk have been linking Islamophobes with racists, fascists and xenophobes here in Europe and beyond for a while. Well, Jay Smith dropped his guard and mentioned a few of his ‘friends’. We investigated his ‘friends’, Anne Marie Waters, Geert Wilders and Douglas Murray. The level of racism, xenophobia and sheer Islamophobia amongst Jay Smith’s ‘friends’ is astonishing.  Absolutely disgusting. I hope Beth Grove, Hatun Tash and the others in his group will see through the far right and white supremacist agendas which are closely tied in with Islamophobia.

Blog: Jonathan McLatchie, yes it is Islamophobic to say what you said…

Rabbi Tovia Singer on Islam and Christianity

Debate Review: Jay Smith and Yusuf Ismail – The Biblical and Quranic Approach to Peace & Violence

Jay Smith Disturbs Muslims, Honor Killings

Prophecies of the Messiah – Reza Aslan

Numerical miracle in Quran

British Muslims Protested to Defend Jesus p

Sharia Law against terrorism

Christians having dreams and converting to Islam

Conversions to Islam

Learn about Islam

Email: yahyasnow@yahoo.co.uk

Bart Ehrman: Why Did Some NT Scribes Omit “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” ?

Previously I blogged about dishonest New Testament scribes who changed the New Testament for the reason of sexism. Here we see something similar, another dishonest small change by the New Testament scribes, but the reason this time is Anti-Semitism.

As per this clip of Dr Bart Ehrman, we are talking about this statement which Jesus p is purported to have said; “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” [Luke 23:34]. This saying is omitted in some of the early manuscripts by some of the New Testament scribes. This omission was due to their theological belief – the Jews killed God (they believed Jesus was divine) and the Jews were not forgiven for this.

Again, the thinking Christian will think OK, they caught these dishonest scribes who were changing the texts according to their Anti-Semitism but what material in the New Testament (especially the first four books called ‘Gospels’) did the scribes alter via additions and/or deletions of words/sentences/paragraphs which has gone undetected?

Is the Trinity in the Old Testament?

Polygamy IS in the Bible – Christians Stop Being SCARED of Liberals

A Question for Dr Ben Witherington and Prof. Dan Wallace

Koine Greek Analysis: Did the Disciples Worship Jesus p? Ali Ataie.

Mary In The Qur’an

Does the Quran include Mary in the Christian Trinity? Ali Ataie Answers

Responding to Christians who boast they call God ‘Father’. Ali Ataie.

What Non Muslim Women Really Think About Muslim Men

Prophecies of the Messiah – Reza Aslan

Nabeel Qureshi Misuses Multiple Scleroris Sufferer to Attack Islam!

May Allah guide the lady to Islam (if not already Muslim) and remove her illness from her. Ameen
Nabeel Qureshi’s friend was rebuked for misusing rape victims in his attacks aganst Muslims and Islam. So are we really surprised that, in this video, Nabeel takes the opportunity to misuse the suffering of a MS sufferer who opened up her personal life to Nabeel and Ravi Zacharias? Nabeel is callous in using the opportunity to attack Islam. Hs attacks were fallacious. His emotional deception that he presented was just that – emotional and deceiving. For more information of Nabeel’s friend misusing rape victims to further his Islamophobic agenda see here

For more on the gentleman in the video, Nabeel Qureshi: http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Nabeel%20Qureshi